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The Real Lessons of the Real History of
The United States and post-Glasnost Ukraine

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Posted By: GustoGrabber, 2/1/2023 8:09:17 AM

I am responding to "Ukraine and the Unlearned Lesson of History," by Jacob Fraden. published in AT 1/31/23. I’ll start with the author’s contention that Russia’s war against Napoleonic France was one of its wars “of aggression.” On June 24, 1812, Napoleon invaded Russia with an army of 650,000, approximately the 12th European county to receive the French tyrant’s military attention. Who was the aggressor here? Tsar Alexander I was a hero at the Congress of Vienna, for crushing that invasion and breaking the French chronic aggressor’s back once and for all.

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Reply 1 - Posted by: Mcscow sailor 2/1/2023 8:36:22 AM (No. 1391936)
Amen
8 people like this.

Reply 2 - Posted by: minuteman 2/1/2023 8:51:34 AM (No. 1391948)
"If our self image of America as a uniquely humane and benign force in the world has any merit, it is we who have a moral duty to assist in bringing this ruinous, and highly dangerous, conflict to an end. The flow of ever more destructive Western weaponry to Ukraine should stop. The mindless, anti-historical demonization of Russia should stop. Negotiations to bring about a conclusion to the war should begin." +1
9 people like this.

Reply 3 - Posted by: Mofongo 2/1/2023 9:27:39 AM (No. 1391972)
Finally, someone lays it out clearly.
7 people like this.

Reply 4 - Posted by: Sanchin 2/1/2023 9:29:14 AM (No. 1391978)
The hard truth (and I do not enjoy saying it much less wish for it) is that the United States is in its death throes as the world leader. Our Financial System has been designed to force other countries to support our economy and consumption and through this allow the US to be the World Leader. That was never the intention of our Founding Fathers but at the turn of the 20th century and especially after WW2 it has been our goal. The reality is our Leadership in either party does not have the mental capability to lead this country much less the World. They are mostly chimps with guns (our military and financial institutions). Scapegoating Russia for their failures worked when Russia and China were weak But not today. This will not end on the plains of Ukraine.
5 people like this.

Reply 5 - Posted by: DVC 2/1/2023 10:21:26 AM (No. 1392028)
Lots of false history in this Russian disinformation piece. I was in Kiev a couple of months before the criminally, fraudulent Yanikivich, ultra corrupt Putin puppet was rejected by the people. The Putin puppet shot down citizens who peacefully occupied the freedom square in Kiev. The dead and wounded were stacked in lobby of the hotel I stayed in, only three months after my last visit. I can tell you that this screed is mostly lies and Russian propaganda. Don't be a sucker and buy it.
3 people like this.

Reply 6 - Posted by: seamusm 2/1/2023 10:43:30 AM (No. 1392053)
This war is because Americans have neglected the lessons of non-revisionist history. Once WE understood the need to protect the Americas from foreign encroachment as far back as the Monroe Doctrine. Why should Russia (or China for that matter) feel any different? I am not saying we should abandon Taiwan as the Brits did Hong Kong but OUR Neocons have NEVER agreed with Eisenhower's warnings about the Military-Industrial-Complex - because they are the heart and soul of it.
3 people like this.

Reply 7 - Posted by: DVC 2/1/2023 12:49:53 PM (No. 1392201)
Note the first commenter on this Russian propaganda piece.
3 people like this.

Reply 8 - Posted by: AnotherYank 2/1/2023 3:30:25 PM (No. 1392284)
The article fails to mention the USSR invading Finland, taking the Baltic states, "Russifying" acquired territory by sending in ethnic Russians, the famine that starved to death millions of Ukrainians, the USSR's own attempts to outlaw the Ukrainian language and culture, the forced takeover of Eastern Europe after WWII, the original conquest of Ukraine by Catherine the Great, etc, etc, etc. The author also ignores the fact that Ukraine gave up its nukes for peace and territorial security in a treaty with Russia, which even Putin affirmed back in 2006. The West had nothing to do with Russia carving out a piece of Georgia or taking over Crimea, while claiming as the excuse for violating the treaty that Crimea was "always" Russian, then fomenting and equipping an ethnic Russian rebellion in Donbas and Luhansk. The West was the aggressor for expanding NATO? Sorry, but joining NATO is voluntary and considering Russia's actions, it seems to be more and more necessary. The author seems to believe that Ukraine is more of a Russian buffer zone than a country and if they decide they'd rather join the EU and the West instead of becoming part of the Russkii Mir, it's grounds for invasion..
2 people like this.

Reply 9 - Posted by: czechlist 2/1/2023 3:58:12 PM (No. 1392302)
#5 anecdotal. Saying you were in Kiev is like saying I was in Washington DC. There is more to Ukraine than Kiev. and more to US than DC
2 people like this.

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